愚人

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这是啧啧同学不厌其烦耐心体贴的回答那位认为藏文不是中文所以西藏不是中国一部分的老兄的部分回帖。写的非常之赞，我回头慢慢翻译过来，以后可以拿来作为教材，教育某些缺乏common sense的naive的同学们。

Part I

As for the question on different Chinese languages, I searched on line and found several links that might be interesting to you:
关于中文字样不同的问题，我在网上找到了一些也许能让你产生兴趣的链接

www.ancientscripts.com/chinese.html
This page shows a progress Chinese (Han) characters took to evolve from graphic-like to today's form. Growing up in Chinese culture, and trained in traditional arts and calligraphy, I still can't read many of the thousands of characters in those ancient forms.

这个网站介绍了中文（汉字）从象形文字发展到今天的过程。虽然我从小在中国长大，受中国文化的熏陶，并且接受过传统中国艺术和书法方面的培训，我对辨认这几千个中国古文字还是会感到有些吃力。

This is an example of another Chinese ethnic minority's written language, which still exists as I visited their area several years ago. The government protects their culture as well as many other small ethnic groups' and encourages them to preserve it.
www.globaled.org/chinaproject/teachingmaterials/lesson_63...
As you might see, it looks rather Egyptian, right?

这个图片显示的是另外一个中国少数民族文字的例子，几年前我去他们当地游玩的时候还亲眼所见它们的存在。政府和其他的一些民族组织着力保护他们的文化，并且鼓励当地居民继续保持下去。你不觉得这些文字看起来，有些象埃及文字吗？

and, here is an image of an ancient Chinese coin, the right one shows 2 Manchurian characters on the left and right. They look more like Tibetan characters than Han to me.
www.ancient-art.com/images/cc779.jpg

这是一张中国古钱的图片，右边的这个古钱上，左右俩端有俩个满文文字，在我看来，它们更象藏文，而不那么象汉字。 

Here is one of the emperor's seals I mentioned:
www.logoi.com/notes/seals/img/daqingshouming.gif
Official imperial seal from the Qing dynasty (1644-1911) with
inscription in Chinese (right) and Manchu (left).

这张图片是我之前提到过的官印，它是清朝 (1644-1911)的御用封印，右边的文字是中国的篆体，左边是满文。

Uygur writing:
www.omniglot.com/writing/uyghur.htm

这是关于“维文”（维吾尔文字）的相关解释，（维文其实属于土耳其语种，中国新疆，阿富汗，澳大利亚，德国，印度，印度尼西亚，哈萨克斯坦，卡及克斯坦，蒙古，巴基斯坦，沙特阿拉伯，台湾，塔吉克斯坦，土耳其，乌兹别克斯坦，甚至美国，将近1千万人都在使用这种语言。）

As you might find, languages, like cultures, have been influencing each other in geographically nearby regions due to neighboring activities such as trading, in the thousands of years in human history. Japanese language and culture surely had been influenced by Chinese, as another example. German and Dutch probably shared close relationship as well, even though I'm no expert in European history.

也许你会发现，语言，就像文明一样，受到地域因素的强烈影响。彼此邻近的国家或者地域会因为贸易等其他的交流形式而互相影响。例如日本的语言和文化就有明显的中国元素，另一个例子可以参考德国和荷兰。

As for Mongols, it was a long story...Even though Mongolia is an independent country now, it had a very long interactive history with China. and there are lot of Ethnic Mongolian people (Chinese citizen) living in China, mostly in the Inner Mongolia province on the north border between the two countries. They preserved much of their cultures, still speak their language ( as well as Manderin Chinese as it's the standard language in China, as English in the US regardless of where your ancestors are from), and sing their songs in their ways.

至于蒙古人，那就是更长的故事了...虽然蒙古现在是一个独立的国家，但在历史上它与中国有着千丝万缕而且漫长的关联。而到现在，在中国也居住着大量中国籍的蒙古族人，他们大部分都居住在内蒙古，位于中国与蒙古俩个国家的交界处。他们对自己的文化传统保护的很好，交流上依然使用自己的民族语言，并且用自己的方式演唱他们的民族歌曲（普通话是中国的主要语言，就像在美国不管你的祖先是哪儿来的，主要都还是使用英文一样）。

To show a larger picture, here is a nice one:
www.paulnoll.com/China/Minorities/China-Nationalities.html
You can click the links to see pictures of those ethnic minority people and read about their interesting culture. Many of them probably don't look like the "typical" Chinese in terms of their faces and costumes. But that's how the Chinese policies allow and encourage them to preserve as members of the large multi-cultural family.

要想更好的了解情况，来看看这个网站，你可以通过点击上面的文字链接看那些少数民族的照片和他们的有趣习俗。如果光从脸和服装来判断的话，他们中的许多人看起来并不是典型的中国人模样，但这正是中国的政策允许并且鼓励他们通过这种方式，在一个巨大的多文化家庭中保持自己的文化传统。

I guess there's something hard for many people to understand, that China has been a nation with multi-ethnic history and cultures for a long time, as American people might proudly say in another 2000 years...For example, I suspect my father's side of the family actually has ethnic minority heritage for they are from a southern island in China close to Thailand, and I look like Thai or Burmese according to some people from those countries. I'm personally proud of my large and historical home country. And it's been a hurtful thing to see people in the western world, without knowing much about some facts, so whole heartily determined to break my home country apart. It's especially hurtful to see some talented artists like you, Bjork and others, using their beautiful styles and influences to spread the campaign with no regard of some basic truth and the feeling of the Chinese ( including Hans, Tibetans, and others).

我猜想对于有些人来说，很难真正的体会和理解中国这样一个有着悠久的多民族多文化国家，象美国人民也许还需要2000年的时间才能这样自豪的自我宣称。例如，我很怀疑我爹那边儿的家族其实有着少数民族血统的，他们从中国南方的一个靠近泰国的岛上迁徙到内陆，而我看起来比较象泰国人或者缅甸人[翻译的人说：zeze你比泰国人或者缅甸人好看多了]。我个人非常为我的祖国有着广袤悠久的历史而感到自豪，所以当我看到西方社会在不充分了解事实的情况下，就全心全意的想分裂我的祖国，我感到非常的痛苦。尤其是看到有些富有才华的艺术家们，例如你[翻译的人说：这人照片拍的可以，就是除了照片之外就没有什么sense]，比约克[翻译的人说：这是个没有什么品味的大傻差]，还有其他的各位，在根本不考虑中国人（包括汉人，藏人和其他民族的人）的感受和基本事实的情况下，利用你们美化过的方式和影响力来传播这种分裂意识。

Again, I hope communication will help all of us understand each other better. And I hope my kind efforts would help bring us closer, to build a relatively better world. 

所以，在这里我希望这样的交流能帮助我们更好的理解对方，同时我也希望我的努力能使我们彼此更加接近，来建立一个相对更美好的世界。 

*****回复的分割线*****

在这之后，那哥们这样回答：

i understand what you are trying to say, but it stil doesn't look right to me if you take a toy from someone it doesn't mean it's yours, but that is a karma issue so for example if france would invade my country it doesn't make me french, it's as simple as that，also the scriptures you are showing me are all arabic scriptures or derivated from arabic, so it still doesn't look at all like tibetan

我大概能理解你想说什么，但在我看来，你从别人那里抢来的东西并不意味着那就是属于你的。就好像法国入侵我的国家也不能让我变成法国人一样，就这么简单。而且你给我看的那些字儿，他们就是阿拉伯文字，或者是从阿拉伯文衍化而来的，看起来根本不象藏文。[翻译的人说：在鬼子们的眼里，方块字看起来都是一样吧？蝌蚪字看起来都是一样吧？罗马字和英文字看起来都差不多吧？这会儿又说不象了。]

mabe you can tell me, because i really don't understand, why they had to invade tibet, if it was china all along, an invasion shouldn't be needed right?you are of coarse right that i don't know mutch about the situation there, but what they tell us here, and what people who fled away tell us about it, and people don't just run away from their country for fun

也许你可以告诉我，因为我实在难以理解，如果西*藏一直都属于中国，那为什么他们非要入侵那里呢？侵略行为根本就是不必要的对吧？当然，你说的对，我的确对那里的情况不甚了解，但是根据他们在这里告诉我们的，还有那些逃亡的人所说的，（我能得出自己的结论）人们不会因为好玩就从自己的国家逃亡的。[翻译的人说：这哥们的逻辑果真很差] 

善良耐心的啧啧再次对这段话进行了不厌其烦的解答，我必须要说，1，啧啧同学的英文真的很好用。2，啧啧同学的耐心实在是太好了。滔滔江水都不足以表达我对啧啧同学的敬仰之情。 

***** 再教育的分割线*******

Part II 

I have to first clarify the fact that the second link I gave you, those Egyptian looking characters, was not from Arabic influences. The region where it's from is east to Tibet. and Manchurian people originally resided in northeast of China, not far from Japan. Tibetan characters were most likely influence by Hindu for it's location, of course.

我得先澄清一下，我给你的第二个链接，那些看起来象埃及文的文字，实际上跟阿拉伯文一点儿关系都没有。那些文字的起源其实是西藏以东，满族人最早居住在中国的东北地区，距离日本不远的地方，藏文其实受到印度文字的影响最大。

As for your question on "why they had to invade tibet", I did some readings when this question rose in the past. To be honest, growing up in China, I didn't learn about the detailed history on this in school. I later read articles written in English and Chinese. I can't say it's the absolute truth and nothing but the truth, but it definitely helped me.

关于你提到的“为什么他们非要入侵西*藏？”，在过去这个问题被多次提出时，我做过一些阅读，老实说，在中国长大的过程中，我在学校没能获得关于这部分历史的详尽知识，后来我读了一些中文和英文的相关文章，虽然我不能说这些文章是绝对真实的，或者除了事实其他什么私货都没有，但它们对我的帮助非常之大。

Historically, Tibet had a very close tie with China for many years. For example in fact, the Chinese emperors (many generations, for accurate account please search on line.) and their commitee were involved in deciding on the reborn Dalai and Banchan (Banchan is less known to the western world even though it's an important role religiously as powerful as Dalai),when the old ones passed. In another word, Dalai and Banchan Lamas,as both spiritual and political leaders in Tibet region in the history, were chosen on both spiritual/religious basis and political basis, while Chinese government was a part of the decision making. Another evidence, rather ironic: "In the thirteenth century, Emperor Kublai Khan created the first Grand Lama, who was to preside over all the other lamas as might a pope over his bishops. Several centuries later, the Emperor of China sent an army into Tibet to support the Grand Lama, an ambitious 25-year-old man, who then gave himself the title of Dalai (Ocean) Lama, ruler of all Tibet. Here is a historical irony: the first Dalai Lama was installed by a Chinese army." (Quoted from the article below)

历史上，西藏与中国有着多年的紧密联系，例如，事实上中国皇帝（许多朝代的中国皇帝，具体情况请自己google吧）和他们的执行人，在老一代Dalai和班禅（对西方人来说，班禅没有Dalai那么出名，但事实上他在宗教上的地位是与Dalai一样重要的）去世时，介入他们转世接班人的寻找和决定。所以换句话来说就是，在西藏宗教和历史上作为精神领袖和政治领袖的Dalai和班禅的认定，不仅仅受到精神宗教层面影响，也要参考政治上的因素，所以中国政府（别管哪届哪代政府）在寻找转世灵童的过程中始终担任了重要角色。不无讽刺的是另一个证据，“十三世纪时，忽必烈任命了第一代大喇嘛，负责统治其他的喇嘛们，就像教皇凌驾在其他主教们之上一样。几个世纪后，当时的中国皇帝派出军队进入西*藏支持当时的大喇嘛，他是一个25岁野心勃勃的年轻人，自己给自己命名为Dalai (Ocean) Lama，掌管西藏。所以这其实有些讽刺意味，第一代的Dalai喇嘛其实是在中国军队的帮助下起家的。”（摘自下面的链接文章）

I can's say these proved that Tibet was officially a part of China but it's obvious that the 2 had a very close relationship. Tibetan culture, including Tibetan Buddhism influenced Mainland Chinese culture as well as Mongul Culture, and Chinese culture, aids, and trades affected the Tibetan's.

当然我不能说这是西-藏属于中国的官方论证，但是显然它说明了西-藏和中国确实有着紧密的联系。西-藏的文化，包括藏传佛教，就像蒙古文化一样，对中国内陆文化产生了很大的影响，而中国内陆的文化，资助，贸易等等活动，反过来也在影响着西-藏。

In the 1950's after the WWII, before the "invasion" of the Chinese, Tibet was a desirable spot cecause it's located in the middle of everything. Many countries wanted tibet, including India, China, Russian and the UK. I found it quite fascinating that the UK and Russian had their hands on it since they don't even border Tibet in anyway, nor did they have anything to do with it... You might be interested to read about that part of the history, in short it seemed like a cat-fight to me. We humans love cat-fights through out history, this one was no difference. The only thing that I think made a "difference" to the western world about this one is that China won. China never did in the recent history. Especially it's the Red China under the communism party. You know, it's upsetting and offensive since this gave China, the rising power, a giant piece of land and the glory of victory. Well, I admit this is my interpretation of the western psyche. You don't have to agree with me. But the fact was that many countries wanted Tibet and if China didn't claim it, India or Russian or the UK would have. That said, Tiebt would NOT have been an independent country anyway. It's a hard truth, I know, but it's all because our human nature of expanding and power hunting... 

二战后50年代，在所谓的中国“入侵”前，因为地理上的重要地位，西-藏是诸国列强都想占有的好地方。许多国家都对它垂涎三尺，包括印度，中国，俄罗斯和英国。我发现一个非常有趣而可笑的事实，英国和俄罗斯其实与西-藏根本连国土交界或者一丁点儿的关联都没有，却无法按捺他们对西-藏的染指之心…如果你愿意的话，可以去读读这个方面的历史，会发现许多有趣之处，但简而言之，对我来说，那不过就是一场cat-fight[翻译的人说：小猫打架，通常用于形容女性之间行为和言语上的厮打，含贬义，意思就是其实谁也不占理，谁都没逻辑，根本不是什么正义之战，就是忍不住要拿爪子挠对方，挠出血了才爽]。

纵观人类历史，可见人们最喜欢的就是cat-fight，这一个其实也不例外。我觉得唯一一点与过往不同的地方，就是这次中国赢了[翻译的人说：哦，耶]。毕竟近代以来中国都没赢过，尤其是这次赢了架的还是红色共-产-主-义中国，你知道，看到中国逐渐崛起富强，又披上了胜利的荣光，这可让相当一部分人感到非常的不爽。好吧，我承认这只是我个人对西方意识形态的理解，你可以保留你的意见。但是事实上，如果中国没有宣布对西-藏的主权，许多其他的国家其实也会这么干。这就是说，西-藏其实根本不会成为一个真正的独立的国家。我知道这是一个很令人难以接受的事实，但这就是人性，对扩张领土的渴望，对获得强权的追求…

Well, would Tibet stay the way it was if say the UK took it? Let's talk about what Tibet was like before the Chinese "invasion". I read several articles on this as well.

所以，如果英国占有了西-藏，它能保持原来的样子吗？ 让我们谈谈在所谓的中国“入侵”前，西－藏本来是什么样的吧，我正好也读了一些这个方面的文章。看看这篇文章，它也提到了中国军队帮助第一代Dalai发家的事情。

here is one (it also mentions that the first Dalai Lama was installed by Chinese Army, as I was talking about above...):
www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Evidences pointed to the real Tibet being a brutal slavery society with dictatorship and extreme inequality. The Tibetan Buddhism, quite different from the imaginary Buddhism we all tend to believe, was not free of blood quenching tortures. “Religious conflict was commonplace in old Tibet,” “History belies the Shangri-La image of Tibetan lamas and their followers living together in mutual tolerance and nonviolent goodwill. Indeed, the situation was quite different. Old Tibet was much more like Europe during the religious wars of the Counterreformation.”

有证据指出，真正的西-藏社会其实有着血腥残酷的奴隶制传统，在奴隶主专政的制度下，整个社会极端的不平等。而藏传佛教，也并非如你所希望去相信的那么美好纯净，相反，它们是血淋淋的。“宗教冲突在旧时代的西-藏那简直就是家常便饭啊。”“历史上把西-藏描绘成喇嘛和他们的信徒们友好安详的生活在一起的理想天堂，彼此相亲相爱，和平共处。可是事实上的情况正相反，旧时代的西-藏更象宗教改革时候的欧洲。”

I agree that nobody would flee their home country for fun. I could understand why the fled Tibetans say so much bad things of the Chinese. Imagine if you were one of the European lords ruling over thousands of slaves and serfs, and one day all of a sudden people from the outside world came in and took all you had away, and then you had to run in fear, and then of course you want what you had back and you want the world to know they are evil people. It happened many times in human history whenever there was a revolution of some sorts and when the rulers were overthrown. Most of the fled Tibetans, in my knowledge, were the upper class land owners and lamas (who had the political power) and not the working class majority. I don't know if you would agree with me that the good for the majority is more important than the good to the kings and lords....

我同意你说的，没有人会仅仅出于“好玩”这样的原因从自己的国家逃亡，我也能够理解为什么那些逃亡的藏人会说那么多关于中国的坏话。你不妨想象一下，如果你是欧洲的大庄园主或者贵族，本来有着几千个奴隶和仆人伺候你，结果忽然一夜之间，你曾经拥有的这一切荣华富贵什么的全都被外来的人拿走取消了，而你只能吓的逃跑，那当然你会希望取回这一切，你也会希望全世界都知道那些夺走你的东西的人都是邪恶的家伙。其实，在人类的历史上，每逢改革或者改朝换代的时候，这种情况就都会发生。据我所知，那些逃亡的藏人大部分都是旧时代西藏的高层统治阶级，要么是拥有大片土地的农奴主，要么就是有着实际政治权力的喇嘛，他们并非真正的普通劳苦大众。我不知道你是否赞同我的意见，就是只有符合大部分人利益的幸福才是真正的幸福，而不是为了满足那些少数贵族们的欲望。

Should the UK or India have kept the slavery rules and rulers if they won the cat fight in the 1950's? I don't think they should or would. Therefore Tibet would not have been "100% preserved" politically, as the fled Tibetans would really want. Culturally, I can't give you hard evidences, but I sadly believe that no ancient cultures have had or could in the future survive this crazy modern world without changing somehow... Based on my knowledge on the Chinese policies to Ethnic minorities, I have to say they are fairly good, though not perfect. We, as modern liberal artists, don't like to see any ancient cultures changing from it's original form, but is it the government to blame or the modern technology and market economy? Many people I know in remote regions and poor countries want to be richer and to gain more financial freedom and opportunities to advance, they want to make more money and buy the 40-inch flat screen instead of wearing their traditional 50lb headdress everyday and shutting the school door to young girls. Would you call it a forward or backward progress? I really can't tell... 

那么如果英国或者印度赢了这场cat-fight的话，他们会不会保持农奴制呢？我认为他们不会也不应该这么做。所以从政治的角度来说，西藏根本就不会象那些逃亡的藏人希望的那样“100％原封不动”。那么从文化的角度来说，我没法给你确凿的证据，虽然这是一个令人悲伤的现实，我也不得不承认，没有哪一种古文明能在现在这种疯狂的现代化社会中分毫不变的保存下去。根据我个人对中国少数民族政策的了解，我觉得它们挺好的，虽然远远说不上完美。我们作为现代自由的艺术家们，不愿意看到任何古文明产生哪怕一点儿的改变，但是，我们究竟该把责任推到政府的头上呢？还是该归咎于现代的科技发展和市场经济？许多我认识的一些边远山区或者贫穷国家的人，他们都希望能富有起来，获得更多的经济上的自由和发展的机会，他们也想挣更多的钱，买的起40寸的大屏幕彩电[翻译的人说：这也是我的理想啊，我也还买不起呢]，而不是每天都带着50磅的民族头饰，或者不许女孩子读书。你会把这种愿望渴求称为进步呢还是倒退呢？

So that was HISTORY. Let's look at Today and Tomorrow. Would Tibet become a better place if we "free" it from China tomorrow? I doubt it. As you can read in the article above, the US has been deeply involved in the last 60+ years, other countries like India might still want it, and I unfortunately don't trust the the fled Tibetans, who were slave lords 60 years ago and don't seem to regret, to build a peaceful society there. Would it do the Tibetan people (I mean those who live in Tibet, whom the westerners don't really hear from without personally visiting Tibet) any good if we start a war tomorrow and tear it away from China from which they have been receiving a tremendous amount of aids in terms of finance, technology, education, and medical??? I doubt it. 

所以啊，这就是历史。让我们看看今天和明天，如果我们让西藏从中国获得独立，它真的会因此而变得更好吗？就像你能从上述的那篇文章中能够读到的那样，美国在过去的60年间一直试图插手西藏的事务，而其他的国家例如印度，也还一直在旁边虎视耽耽。而我不能相信那些逃亡藏人，那些60年前的农奴主们，就看他们一点儿都不觉得农奴制有什么不好的态度，我不觉得他们能建设一个和平美好的西藏社会。那么，对那些普通的西藏人民来说，我是指那些目前生活在西藏，那些需要你亲自到那片土地上与他们交谈的人们，如果我们明天就发起一场战争，把这篇土地从中国版图上撕裂，那么他们就能获得大量的更多的经济上，技术上，教育上还有医疗上的资助吗？

I understand the fled Tibetans' pain and will to revenge as the former rulers. Therefore I question their motives. I also question the motives of some of the pro-free-tibet people and countries in the western world - what do they really want to see in China and Tibet? Is this whole thing in anyway constructive? Hatreds and revenge don't make the world a better place, neither do violent Riot nor one-sided propaganda. I think there could be a million different perspectives and a million different suggestion on how Tibet should be treated, by what government, and in what conditions. But China's right of maintaining the integrity of territory should be at least respected. 

我能理解那些逃亡的藏人的痛苦，也能理解作为前统治者他们希望报复和恢复统治的愿望。因此我置疑他们的动机，同样，我也不禁置疑那些所谓的支持藏-独的人和西方国家的动机。他们到底希望看到中国和西藏发生什么呢？这一切有一点儿建设性的意义吗？仇恨和报复不会使这个世界变得更好，而流血暴力事件和一方抹黑式的宣传也不会有什么好的效果。我想，关于西藏问题该如何解决大家都有着无数的不同意见和建议。但是，中国对西藏的主权应该得到最起码的尊重。

I can't say that Bjork or you are wrong for passionately believing in what you believe, as an idea for a better world, because I passionately believe in it too. But I think there's a chance that the artists, as well as many others, are used, manipulated and abused by not being offered the whole and real story. Again, I'm no historian or Tibet issue scholar, I say these words based on my readings and thinkings. There must be a lot more information we can find on line and in the library that could help us all learn more about it. I hope we all just become better people in the process. 

我不能说比约克或者你那么充满了热情的坚守你们的信念是错误的[翻译的人的话：就是错的。狂热的坚持错误的信仰，其实就是傻差行为]，你们只是希望这个世界变得更好，而我也这样热切的希望着。但是我认为对于艺术家们来说，就像其他的某些人一样，有一定的可能性在一定的程度上，他们被利用了。他们被灌输了不全面和不真实的信息，他们的热情和影响力因此被滥用。我得再次声明，我不是一个历史学家，或者西藏问题的专家，以上我说的这些话是建立在我的阅读和思考基础上。我相信在网上或者图书馆里可以找到更多的更全面的有用知识，来帮助我们更好的了解事实情况。我只是希望在这个过程中，我们都能成为更好的人。

****总结的分割线****

累死我了。赞理性的啧啧。